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Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

derek riemer
 

We have a plethora of blindness organizations we could ask to help out with the conference by borrowing their zoom conference that they use for other programs. If we approach them with empathy, compassion, and willingness to help support their programs financially, maybe we can work something out and avoid having to fund the whole thing ourselves.
Cheers,
Derek


On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:01 PM Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

<grin>

Unfortunately while I am employed its not full time.

However when the next nvda con comes about, I guess there is no issues asking my bosses and see what they see.

The company is for accessibility, there is a good chance they will accept the conference yearly if necessary, not sure about rate but they are an accessibility company.

Of course it would be good if at that point whoever organised it asked me for it or went themselves.




On 10/12/2020 3:44 am, Iván Novegil via groups.io wrote:
I also know people that defends TeamTalk.
As you are employed and very independent, you can start collecting the money to fund Zoom or propose an alternative platform with similar features to TeamTalk. Then you would have to organize de conference, of course, earing people who says that NVDACon 2021 is a bad organized conference because they prefer TeamTalk.
Alternatively, you could develop a statistic on people who has problems with TeamTalk or a web streaming and what that problems are, so you can expose it instead of the thoughts of indeterminate users, who maybe not facing any problems with TeamTalk but they are so lazy as to get it, or who maybe dont exist.
Be reasonable. A thing is understanding your point, which for me is completely valid, and another agreeing with this type of rude comments.
Additionally, I dont think the openning forum is the right place to be heard regarding this. All of those who took part in platform debate could, for example, enjoy the conference and expose concerns through places such as this list.

Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@...


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El 9 dic 2020, a las 15:29, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> escribió:


Hello Robert,

And I leave you with my thoughts:

I did not create this thread, simply responded to it.

We are in agreement that my actions were not good.

I have heard from quite a number of users stating that they agree that the platform is a poor choice, and they wish for a change in platform.

If this list, the one where organizers reside, is a poor place to discuss this topic, then where in the world is a better one?

This is my last subject on this as it is abundantly clear that the organizers have decided to, instead of being responsive to the community at large, and instead of being representative of this community, instead of looking to actually be the global community conference of NVDA, it seems that, from the top down, NVDA Con is being known as a blindy event, using a piece of software that frankly only unemployed blind homebodies use, and instead of taking feedback on board, not just mine, but that of the community, this group has decided to bury its collective thumb up its butt and ignore the fact that a real problem exists, the identity of NVDA con. With the exception of, seemingly Joseph, who has seen the need for a platform change, others on this group seem to continue to make excuses for why it would be too hard to change, and why we need to remain entrenched where we stand.

With that, I will go back to my sideline role until next year, when I will try to, again, be heard, and have the community be heard. Good luck with your continuance of using an antiquated platform, and good luck advertising for, and attracting 30 users, plus another 20-30 who were there the entire time and were part of NVDA con planning. Good luck calling it an international conference representative of the community. As my donation is meaningless and not welcome, I will take it somewhere else, or maybe just use it to do something good for myself.

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:27 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> One extra could be put in in this reguard.
>
> I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
> enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
> is used by both blind and sighted.
>
> I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
> other options.
>
> A discord server is free enough.
>
> I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.
>
> Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
> lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
> zoom if thats what people want.
>
> I have been on webinars that are like this.
>
> Now though, who are we serving here?
>
> With exception with the developments and where blindness and
> accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
> those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.
>
> And its quite short in any case.
>
> But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
> mention my name.
>
> https://accessadvisors.nz/
>
> This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.
>
> They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
> most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.
>
> As a collective they are ok.
>
> These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
> with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
> distribution.
>
> Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.
>
> Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
> broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.
>
> If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.
>
> The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.
>
> The main event is the international con.
>
> I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
> there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.
>
> Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
> helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
> someone else.
>
>
> You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
> bigger.
>
> And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
> so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
> problem depending what and where, etc.
>
> I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
>> to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:
>>
>>   * This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
>>     to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
>>     that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
>>     of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
>>   * This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
>>     like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
>>     the product.
>>   * NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
>>     this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.
>>
>> I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
>> this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
>> and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
>> considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
>> changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
>> prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
>> presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
>> success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
>> stream.
>>
>> The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
>> places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
>> communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
>> this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
>> course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
>> they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
>> now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
>> Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
>> cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
>> think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
>> serving and wish to reach out to.
>>
>> I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
>> If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
>> community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
>> and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
>> found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
>> NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
>> outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
>> decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
>> reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
>> analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
>> is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
>> strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
>> information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
>> execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
>> of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.
>>
>> Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Shaun Everiss
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
>> *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
>> moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>> I agree, also who are we pandering to.
>>
>> I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
>> it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.
>>
>> I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
>> those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.
>>
>> Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
>> wants to contribute that would be fine.
>>
>> Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
>> platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
>> teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.
>>
>> The other way we could do this is skype.
>>
>> Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
>> can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
>> handle this.
>>
>> I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.
>>
>> We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
>> a thing that can happen in skype.
>>
>> I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
>> platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
>> like it.
>>
>> Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.
>>
>> The blind will not want or need videos.
>>
>> If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
>> talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.
>>
>> However the forums, probably not so much.
>>
>> I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
>> keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.
>>
>> I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
>> aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
>> the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.
>>
>> For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.
>>
>> Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
>> apis and that could work.
>>
>> We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.
>>
>> We will always have issues.
>>
>> On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>
>>     I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
>>     Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
>>     that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
>>     it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
>>     doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
>>     expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
>>     something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
>>     sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
>>     moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
>>     professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
>>     is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.
>>
>>     If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
>>     available and this means that people will still be able to talk
>>     without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
>>     have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
>>     in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
>>     rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
>>     being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
>>     moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
>>     faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.
>>
>>     To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
>>     participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
>>     one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
>>     who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
>>     Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
>>     where every one can speak.
>>
>>     I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
>>     strategically in which direction we want to go.
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Adriani
>>
>>     *Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
>>     Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
>>     *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
>>     *An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     *Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>     success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>     Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.
>>
>>     Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
>>     than 3 people for 40 minutes.
>>
>>     So someone will have to pay to run zoom.
>>
>>     Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.
>>
>>     Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
>>     conference that would be different.
>>
>>     But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.
>>
>>     I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
>>     meeting is handled is for the conference.
>>
>>     The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
>>     that would mean someone else hosting it.
>>
>>     Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
>>     meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
>>     a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.
>>
>>     No one knows how many will attend a conference.
>>
>>     Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.
>>
>>     Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
>>     I don't know.
>>
>>     Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
>>     yearly event 1 time.
>>
>>     Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
>>     year, but I don't have that.
>>
>>     There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
>>     about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
>>     conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
>>     weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.
>>
>>     On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
>>         platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
>>         dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
>>         demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
>>         personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
>>         for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
>>         if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
>>         should use a platform that allows more audience participation.
>>
>>         The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
>>         Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
>>         should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
>>         and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
>>         through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
>>         it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
>>         changed how people consume information (online presence will
>>         be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
>>         appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
>>         audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
>>         an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
>>         strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
>>         mainstream strategies.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>
>>         Joseph
>>
>>         *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
>>         Behalf Of *lauracornwell
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
>>         *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>         success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>         Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
>>         zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
>>         could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
>>         weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
>>         with team talk would be better .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

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Re: Admin mode activated: RE: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hi Laura and others,

Let's not worry about promotion for now. What's more important is to help organizers finish unfinished business over this year's event, namely waiting for session recordings to go up. This is another reason for asking everyone to cool down so that our recording engineers can create a professional-level archive of NVDACon 2020 for our listening pleasure.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

<grin>

Unfortunately while I am employed its not full time.

However when the next nvda con comes about, I guess there is no issues asking my bosses and see what they see.

The company is for accessibility, there is a good chance they will accept the conference yearly if necessary, not sure about rate but they are an accessibility company.

Of course it would be good if at that point whoever organised it asked me for it or went themselves.




On 10/12/2020 3:44 am, Iván Novegil via groups.io wrote:
I also know people that defends TeamTalk.
As you are employed and very independent, you can start collecting the money to fund Zoom or propose an alternative platform with similar features to TeamTalk. Then you would have to organize de conference, of course, earing people who says that NVDACon 2021 is a bad organized conference because they prefer TeamTalk.
Alternatively, you could develop a statistic on people who has problems with TeamTalk or a web streaming and what that problems are, so you can expose it instead of the thoughts of indeterminate users, who maybe not facing any problems with TeamTalk but they are so lazy as to get it, or who maybe dont exist.
Be reasonable. A thing is understanding your point, which for me is completely valid, and another agreeing with this type of rude comments.
Additionally, I dont think the openning forum is the right place to be heard regarding this. All of those who took part in platform debate could, for example, enjoy the conference and expose concerns through places such as this list.

Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@...


NVDA.es Logo
Comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA | Proyecto NVDA.es
www.NVDA.es
@nvda_es


Usuario do NVDA en galego

***Esta mensaxe e/ou os seus adxuntos están dirixidos ao seu destinatario e poden conter información privilexiada ou confidencial. A utilización, copia ou divulgación dos mesmos por parte de alguén diferente do destinatario mencionado non están permitidas sen autorización. Se recibiu esta mensaxe por erro pregámoslle o comunique por esta mesma vía e a destrúa.***


El 9 dic 2020, a las 15:29, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> escribió:


Hello Robert,

And I leave you with my thoughts:

I did not create this thread, simply responded to it.

We are in agreement that my actions were not good.

I have heard from quite a number of users stating that they agree that the platform is a poor choice, and they wish for a change in platform.

If this list, the one where organizers reside, is a poor place to discuss this topic, then where in the world is a better one?

This is my last subject on this as it is abundantly clear that the organizers have decided to, instead of being responsive to the community at large, and instead of being representative of this community, instead of looking to actually be the global community conference of NVDA, it seems that, from the top down, NVDA Con is being known as a blindy event, using a piece of software that frankly only unemployed blind homebodies use, and instead of taking feedback on board, not just mine, but that of the community, this group has decided to bury its collective thumb up its butt and ignore the fact that a real problem exists, the identity of NVDA con. With the exception of, seemingly Joseph, who has seen the need for a platform change, others on this group seem to continue to make excuses for why it would be too hard to change, and why we need to remain entrenched where we stand.

With that, I will go back to my sideline role until next year, when I will try to, again, be heard, and have the community be heard. Good luck with your continuance of using an antiquated platform, and good luck advertising for, and attracting 30 users, plus another 20-30 who were there the entire time and were part of NVDA con planning. Good luck calling it an international conference representative of the community. As my donation is meaningless and not welcome, I will take it somewhere else, or maybe just use it to do something good for myself.

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:27 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> One extra could be put in in this reguard.
>
> I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
> enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
> is used by both blind and sighted.
>
> I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
> other options.
>
> A discord server is free enough.
>
> I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.
>
> Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
> lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
> zoom if thats what people want.
>
> I have been on webinars that are like this.
>
> Now though, who are we serving here?
>
> With exception with the developments and where blindness and
> accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
> those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.
>
> And its quite short in any case.
>
> But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
> mention my name.
>
> https://accessadvisors.nz/
>
> This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.
>
> They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
> most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.
>
> As a collective they are ok.
>
> These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
> with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
> distribution.
>
> Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.
>
> Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
> broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.
>
> If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.
>
> The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.
>
> The main event is the international con.
>
> I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
> there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.
>
> Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
> helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
> someone else.
>
>
> You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
> bigger.
>
> And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
> so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
> problem depending what and where, etc.
>
> I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
>> to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:
>>
>>   * This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
>>     to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
>>     that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
>>     of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
>>   * This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
>>     like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
>>     the product.
>>   * NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
>>     this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.
>>
>> I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
>> this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
>> and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
>> considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
>> changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
>> prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
>> presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
>> success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
>> stream.
>>
>> The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
>> places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
>> communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
>> this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
>> course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
>> they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
>> now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
>> Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
>> cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
>> think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
>> serving and wish to reach out to.
>>
>> I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
>> If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
>> community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
>> and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
>> found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
>> NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
>> outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
>> decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
>> reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
>> analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
>> is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
>> strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
>> information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
>> execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
>> of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.
>>
>> Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Shaun Everiss
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
>> *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
>> moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>> I agree, also who are we pandering to.
>>
>> I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
>> it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.
>>
>> I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
>> those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.
>>
>> Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
>> wants to contribute that would be fine.
>>
>> Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
>> platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
>> teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.
>>
>> The other way we could do this is skype.
>>
>> Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
>> can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
>> handle this.
>>
>> I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.
>>
>> We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
>> a thing that can happen in skype.
>>
>> I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
>> platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
>> like it.
>>
>> Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.
>>
>> The blind will not want or need videos.
>>
>> If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
>> talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.
>>
>> However the forums, probably not so much.
>>
>> I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
>> keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.
>>
>> I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
>> aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
>> the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.
>>
>> For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.
>>
>> Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
>> apis and that could work.
>>
>> We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.
>>
>> We will always have issues.
>>
>> On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>
>>     I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
>>     Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
>>     that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
>>     it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
>>     doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
>>     expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
>>     something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
>>     sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
>>     moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
>>     professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
>>     is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.
>>
>>     If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
>>     available and this means that people will still be able to talk
>>     without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
>>     have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
>>     in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
>>     rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
>>     being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
>>     moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
>>     faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.
>>
>>     To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
>>     participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
>>     one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
>>     who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
>>     Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
>>     where every one can speak.
>>
>>     I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
>>     strategically in which direction we want to go.
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Adriani
>>
>>     *Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
>>     Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
>>     *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
>>     *An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     *Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>     success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>     Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.
>>
>>     Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
>>     than 3 people for 40 minutes.
>>
>>     So someone will have to pay to run zoom.
>>
>>     Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.
>>
>>     Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
>>     conference that would be different.
>>
>>     But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.
>>
>>     I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
>>     meeting is handled is for the conference.
>>
>>     The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
>>     that would mean someone else hosting it.
>>
>>     Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
>>     meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
>>     a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.
>>
>>     No one knows how many will attend a conference.
>>
>>     Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.
>>
>>     Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
>>     I don't know.
>>
>>     Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
>>     yearly event 1 time.
>>
>>     Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
>>     year, but I don't have that.
>>
>>     There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
>>     about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
>>     conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
>>     weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.
>>
>>     On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
>>         platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
>>         dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
>>         demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
>>         personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
>>         for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
>>         if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
>>         should use a platform that allows more audience participation.
>>
>>         The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
>>         Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
>>         should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
>>         and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
>>         through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
>>         it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
>>         changed how people consume information (online presence will
>>         be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
>>         appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
>>         audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
>>         an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
>>         strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
>>         mainstream strategies.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>
>>         Joseph
>>
>>         *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
>>         Behalf Of *lauracornwell
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
>>         *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>         success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>         Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
>>         zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
>>         could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
>>         weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
>>         with team talk would be better .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
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Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Admin mode activated: RE: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

lauracornwell
 

Hey Joe, I am trying to decide how to better   promote the con, but with everything that happened this will make it hard for me to even try because what I am thinking is that you work hard on something like this and someone has to go and be rood after the fact that to me is know   way to treat something like this people who give of there time each and .every your

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2020 11:47 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Admin mode activated: RE: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hello NVDACon organizers, supporters, and the wider community,

I’m coming up on the stage not much as the founder, but as your forum administrator (for folks who thought such a thing didn’t exist, now you know).

First, I advise cooling down for a while. I can testify how hard it is to let go of what happened during early hours of NVDACon 2020 last weekend. It is okay to talk about recent memories when it is fresh in our minds if you choose to. But we need some time to recover and reflect, and that’s what I think people need desperately. Cooling down also helps folks research things so that when organizers meet again, folks would be ready to discuss issues in a more constructive way.

Second, let me state that analyses and critiques of NVDACon are perfectly acceptable on a public space like this. However, it would be grateful if you can speak not just from your experience, but provide data as well (statistics, reviews, comparisons, anecdotes, expert statements, etc.). Analyses without data amounts to speculation, and critiques without evidence collapses into complaints. Without hard (and hopefully solid) evidence, people cannot decide what to do next.

Third, reflection and encouragement are our top vaccines. We as the community must have capacity to reflect on lessons learned in the past. Not only that, but we as the community must also be willing to encourage people and give them strength for the present and the future.

We’re going through a difficult moment in history, not only of the world but NVDACon as well. I think the best gift the NVDA community can give to NVDACon and its organizers is encouragements and recognizing the good in bad moments. In addition, I think the best thing NVDACon organizers can do is thinking about and incorporating lessons learned in the past in future planning. Most importantly, even when we show strong opinions and willpower, let’s remind ourselves that reputation of the overall community and NVDACon matters, and that individual statements together with thoughtful collective reflection and action will influence how people (especially outsiders) view NVDACon in the future.

Feel free to contact me if you need advice, vent frustrations, feeling worried, or need somebody to talk to (doesn’t matter if you are an organizer or a participant) – I’m just an email or a tweet away.

Cheers,

Joseph


Admin mode activated: RE: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hello NVDACon organizers, supporters, and the wider community,

I’m coming up on the stage not much as the founder, but as your forum administrator (for folks who thought such a thing didn’t exist, now you know).

First, I advise cooling down for a while. I can testify how hard it is to let go of what happened during early hours of NVDACon 2020 last weekend. It is okay to talk about recent memories when it is fresh in our minds if you choose to. But we need some time to recover and reflect, and that’s what I think people need desperately. Cooling down also helps folks research things so that when organizers meet again, folks would be ready to discuss issues in a more constructive way.

Second, let me state that analyses and critiques of NVDACon are perfectly acceptable on a public space like this. However, it would be grateful if you can speak not just from your experience, but provide data as well (statistics, reviews, comparisons, anecdotes, expert statements, etc.). Analyses without data amounts to speculation, and critiques without evidence collapses into complaints. Without hard (and hopefully solid) evidence, people cannot decide what to do next.

Third, reflection and encouragement are our top vaccines. We as the community must have capacity to reflect on lessons learned in the past. Not only that, we as the community must be willing to encourage people and give them strength for the present and the future.

We’re going through a difficult moment in history, not only of the world but NVDACon as well. I think the best gift the NVDA community can give to NVDACon and its organizers is encouragements and recognizing the good in bad moments. In addition, I think the best thing NVDACon organizers can do is thinking about and incorporating lessons learned in the past in future planning. Most importantly, even when we show strong opinions and willpower, let’s remind ourselves that reputation of the overall community and NVDACon matters, and that individual statements together with thoughtful collective reflection and action will influence how people (especially outsiders) view NVDACon in the future.

Feel free to contact me if you need advice, vent frustrations, feeling worried, or need somebody to talk to (doesn’t matter if you are an organizer or a participant) – I’m just an email or a tweet away.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Iván Novegil
 

I also know people that defends TeamTalk.
As you are employed and very independent, you can start collecting the money to fund Zoom or propose an alternative platform with similar features to TeamTalk. Then you would have to organize de conference, of course, earing people who says that NVDACon 2021 is a bad organized conference because they prefer TeamTalk.
Alternatively, you could develop a statistic on people who has problems with TeamTalk or a web streaming and what that problems are, so you can expose it instead of the thoughts of indeterminate users, who maybe not facing any problems with TeamTalk but they are so lazy as to get it, or who maybe dont exist.
Be reasonable. A thing is understanding your point, which for me is completely valid, and another agreeing with this type of rude comments.
Additionally, I dont think the openning forum is the right place to be heard regarding this. All of those who took part in platform debate could, for example, enjoy the conference and expose concerns through places such as this list.

Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@...


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El 9 dic 2020, a las 15:29, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> escribió:


Hello Robert,

And I leave you with my thoughts:

I did not create this thread, simply responded to it.

We are in agreement that my actions were not good.

I have heard from quite a number of users stating that they agree that the platform is a poor choice, and they wish for a change in platform.

If this list, the one where organizers reside, is a poor place to discuss this topic, then where in the world is a better one?

This is my last subject on this as it is abundantly clear that the organizers have decided to, instead of being responsive to the community at large, and instead of being representative of this community, instead of looking to actually be the global community conference of NVDA, it seems that, from the top down, NVDA Con is being known as a blindy event, using a piece of software that frankly only unemployed blind homebodies use, and instead of taking feedback on board, not just mine, but that of the community, this group has decided to bury its collective thumb up its butt and ignore the fact that a real problem exists, the identity of NVDA con. With the exception of, seemingly Joseph, who has seen the need for a platform change, others on this group seem to continue to make excuses for why it would be too hard to change, and why we need to remain entrenched where we stand.

With that, I will go back to my sideline role until next year, when I will try to, again, be heard, and have the community be heard. Good luck with your continuance of using an antiquated platform, and good luck advertising for, and attracting 30 users, plus another 20-30 who were there the entire time and were part of NVDA con planning. Good luck calling it an international conference representative of the community. As my donation is meaningless and not welcome, I will take it somewhere else, or maybe just use it to do something good for myself.

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:27 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> One extra could be put in in this reguard.
>
> I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
> enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
> is used by both blind and sighted.
>
> I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
> other options.
>
> A discord server is free enough.
>
> I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.
>
> Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
> lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
> zoom if thats what people want.
>
> I have been on webinars that are like this.
>
> Now though, who are we serving here?
>
> With exception with the developments and where blindness and
> accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
> those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.
>
> And its quite short in any case.
>
> But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
> mention my name.
>
> https://accessadvisors.nz/
>
> This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.
>
> They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
> most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.
>
> As a collective they are ok.
>
> These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
> with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
> distribution.
>
> Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.
>
> Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
> broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.
>
> If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.
>
> The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.
>
> The main event is the international con.
>
> I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
> there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.
>
> Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
> helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
> someone else.
>
>
> You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
> bigger.
>
> And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
> so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
> problem depending what and where, etc.
>
> I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
>> to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:
>>
>>   * This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
>>     to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
>>     that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
>>     of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
>>   * This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
>>     like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
>>     the product.
>>   * NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
>>     this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.
>>
>> I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
>> this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
>> and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
>> considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
>> changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
>> prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
>> presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
>> success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
>> stream.
>>
>> The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
>> places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
>> communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
>> this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
>> course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
>> they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
>> now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
>> Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
>> cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
>> think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
>> serving and wish to reach out to.
>>
>> I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
>> If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
>> community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
>> and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
>> found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
>> NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
>> outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
>> decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
>> reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
>> analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
>> is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
>> strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
>> information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
>> execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
>> of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.
>>
>> Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Shaun Everiss
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
>> *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
>> moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>> I agree, also who are we pandering to.
>>
>> I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
>> it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.
>>
>> I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
>> those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.
>>
>> Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
>> wants to contribute that would be fine.
>>
>> Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
>> platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
>> teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.
>>
>> The other way we could do this is skype.
>>
>> Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
>> can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
>> handle this.
>>
>> I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.
>>
>> We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
>> a thing that can happen in skype.
>>
>> I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
>> platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
>> like it.
>>
>> Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.
>>
>> The blind will not want or need videos.
>>
>> If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
>> talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.
>>
>> However the forums, probably not so much.
>>
>> I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
>> keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.
>>
>> I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
>> aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
>> the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.
>>
>> For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.
>>
>> Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
>> apis and that could work.
>>
>> We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.
>>
>> We will always have issues.
>>
>> On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>
>>     I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
>>     Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
>>     that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
>>     it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
>>     doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
>>     expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
>>     something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
>>     sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
>>     moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
>>     professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
>>     is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.
>>
>>     If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
>>     available and this means that people will still be able to talk
>>     without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
>>     have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
>>     in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
>>     rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
>>     being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
>>     moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
>>     faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.
>>
>>     To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
>>     participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
>>     one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
>>     who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
>>     Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
>>     where every one can speak.
>>
>>     I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
>>     strategically in which direction we want to go.
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Adriani
>>
>>     *Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
>>     Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
>>     *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
>>     *An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     *Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>     success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>     Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.
>>
>>     Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
>>     than 3 people for 40 minutes.
>>
>>     So someone will have to pay to run zoom.
>>
>>     Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.
>>
>>     Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
>>     conference that would be different.
>>
>>     But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.
>>
>>     I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
>>     meeting is handled is for the conference.
>>
>>     The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
>>     that would mean someone else hosting it.
>>
>>     Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
>>     meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
>>     a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.
>>
>>     No one knows how many will attend a conference.
>>
>>     Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.
>>
>>     Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
>>     I don't know.
>>
>>     Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
>>     yearly event 1 time.
>>
>>     Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
>>     year, but I don't have that.
>>
>>     There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
>>     about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
>>     conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
>>     weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.
>>
>>     On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
>>         platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
>>         dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
>>         demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
>>         personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
>>         for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
>>         if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
>>         should use a platform that allows more audience participation.
>>
>>         The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
>>         Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
>>         should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
>>         and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
>>         through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
>>         it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
>>         changed how people consume information (online presence will
>>         be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
>>         appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
>>         audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
>>         an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
>>         strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
>>         mainstream strategies.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>
>>         Joseph
>>
>>         *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
>>         Behalf Of *lauracornwell
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
>>         *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>         success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>         Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
>>         zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
>>         could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
>>         weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
>>         with team talk would be better .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

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Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Robert,

And I leave you with my thoughts:

I did not create this thread, simply responded to it.

We are in agreement that my actions were not good.

I have heard from quite a number of users stating that they agree that the platform is a poor choice, and they wish for a change in platform.

If this list, the one where organizers reside, is a poor place to discuss this topic, then where in the world is a better one?

This is my last subject on this as it is abundantly clear that the organizers have decided to, instead of being responsive to the community at large, and instead of being representative of this community, instead of looking to actually be the global community conference of NVDA, it seems that, from the top down, NVDA Con is being known as a blindy event, using a piece of software that frankly only unemployed blind homebodies use, and instead of taking feedback on board, not just mine, but that of the community, this group has decided to bury its collective thumb up its butt and ignore the fact that a real problem exists, the identity of NVDA con. With the exception of, seemingly Joseph, who has seen the need for a platform change, others on this group seem to continue to make excuses for why it would be too hard to change, and why we need to remain entrenched where we stand.

With that, I will go back to my sideline role until next year, when I will try to, again, be heard, and have the community be heard. Good luck with your continuance of using an antiquated platform, and good luck advertising for, and attracting 30 users, plus another 20-30 who were there the entire time and were part of NVDA con planning. Good luck calling it an international conference representative of the community. As my donation is meaningless and not welcome, I will take it somewhere else, or maybe just use it to do something good for myself.


On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:27 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> One extra could be put in in this reguard.
>
> I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
> enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
> is used by both blind and sighted.
>
> I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
> other options.
>
> A discord server is free enough.
>
> I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.
>
> Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
> lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
> zoom if thats what people want.
>
> I have been on webinars that are like this.
>
> Now though, who are we serving here?
>
> With exception with the developments and where blindness and
> accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
> those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.
>
> And its quite short in any case.
>
> But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
> mention my name.
>
> https://accessadvisors.nz/
>
> This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.
>
> They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
> most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.
>
> As a collective they are ok.
>
> These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
> with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
> distribution.
>
> Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.
>
> Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
> broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.
>
> If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.
>
> The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.
>
> The main event is the international con.
>
> I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
> there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.
>
> Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
> helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
> someone else.
>
>
> You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
> bigger.
>
> And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
> so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
> problem depending what and where, etc.
>
> I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
>> to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:
>>
>>   * This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
>>     to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
>>     that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
>>     of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
>>   * This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
>>     like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
>>     the product.
>>   * NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
>>     this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.
>>
>> I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
>> this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
>> and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
>> considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
>> changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
>> prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
>> presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
>> success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
>> stream.
>>
>> The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
>> places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
>> communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
>> this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
>> course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
>> they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
>> now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
>> Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
>> cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
>> think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
>> serving and wish to reach out to.
>>
>> I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
>> If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
>> community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
>> and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
>> found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
>> NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
>> outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
>> decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
>> reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
>> analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
>> is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
>> strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
>> information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
>> execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
>> of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.
>>
>> Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Shaun Everiss
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
>> *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
>> moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>> I agree, also who are we pandering to.
>>
>> I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
>> it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.
>>
>> I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
>> those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.
>>
>> Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
>> wants to contribute that would be fine.
>>
>> Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
>> platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
>> teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.
>>
>> The other way we could do this is skype.
>>
>> Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
>> can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
>> handle this.
>>
>> I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.
>>
>> We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
>> a thing that can happen in skype.
>>
>> I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
>> platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
>> like it.
>>
>> Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.
>>
>> The blind will not want or need videos.
>>
>> If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
>> talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.
>>
>> However the forums, probably not so much.
>>
>> I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
>> keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.
>>
>> I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
>> aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
>> the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.
>>
>> For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.
>>
>> Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
>> apis and that could work.
>>
>> We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.
>>
>> We will always have issues.
>>
>> On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>
>>     I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
>>     Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
>>     that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
>>     it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
>>     doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
>>     expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
>>     something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
>>     sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
>>     moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
>>     professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
>>     is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.
>>
>>     If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
>>     available and this means that people will still be able to talk
>>     without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
>>     have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
>>     in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
>>     rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
>>     being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
>>     moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
>>     faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.
>>
>>     To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
>>     participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
>>     one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
>>     who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
>>     Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
>>     where every one can speak.
>>
>>     I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
>>     strategically in which direction we want to go.
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Adriani
>>
>>     *Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
>>     Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
>>     *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
>>     *An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     *Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>     success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>     Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.
>>
>>     Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
>>     than 3 people for 40 minutes.
>>
>>     So someone will have to pay to run zoom.
>>
>>     Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.
>>
>>     Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
>>     conference that would be different.
>>
>>     But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.
>>
>>     I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
>>     meeting is handled is for the conference.
>>
>>     The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
>>     that would mean someone else hosting it.
>>
>>     Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
>>     meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
>>     a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.
>>
>>     No one knows how many will attend a conference.
>>
>>     Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.
>>
>>     Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
>>     I don't know.
>>
>>     Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
>>     yearly event 1 time.
>>
>>     Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
>>     year, but I don't have that.
>>
>>     There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
>>     about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
>>     conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
>>     weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.
>>
>>     On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
>>         platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
>>         dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
>>         demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
>>         personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
>>         for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
>>         if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
>>         should use a platform that allows more audience participation.
>>
>>         The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
>>         Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
>>         should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
>>         and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
>>         through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
>>         it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
>>         changed how people consume information (online presence will
>>         be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
>>         appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
>>         audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
>>         an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
>>         strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
>>         mainstream strategies.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>
>>         Joseph
>>
>>         *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
>>         Behalf Of *lauracornwell
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
>>         *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>         success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>         Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
>>         zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
>>         could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
>>         weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
>>         with team talk would be better .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
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up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
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To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Keynote questions

Robert Hänggi
 

Hi Quentin

I don't think that there were many questions during the replay (if
they weren't already answered in the chat).

Speech would probably be best since adding them as text gives them a
certain emphasis.

However, I don't see the need to add anything. You can send the answer
to the Spanish question directly.

Here's the sparse chat log that I have from the replay.
I see actually only two real questions and I leave it up to you if
they have been answered already.

Cheers
Robert

<Laura> I am wanting to find out could you all be able to fix it to
where dropbox addon could be put into cor ?
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> I'd say that'd probably not be worth doing.
and I think this is the replay.
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> lol.
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> just looked at the schedule.
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> And my net is lagging.
<Jason HPDQ1038WM> As to Laura's question, no can do on DropBox.
Besides, not everyone uses it. Especially me.
<Bachir BENANOU> q. Many people have been asking me whether it is
possible to launch NVDA automatically by the means of some sort of
AutoRun or other procedure to make NVDA launch on a computer without
the need for another screen reader. Does NVAccess have any plans on
acheving this? Thank you.
<Adriani Stream> during the installation process you can set NVDA to
start automatically when windows starts. You can also check the
checkbox to create the shortcut ctrl+alt+n to start NVDA on demand
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> it's ok. i think my net is getting more stable now.
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> This is a pretty fassinating keynote.
<Ethan> you are listening to the Q&A of the keynote. If you missed the
keynote, it will be posted on nvdacon.org
<The Wiley Coydog's Board> cool. thanks.
<Adriani Stream> feel free to write your questions in the chat, we
will direct them to NV Access afterwards
<Robert, Chair NVDACon> They will answer in speech and we will post the addendum

On 07/12/2020, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:
Hi Robert and everyone,

Firstly, congratulations on a fantastic NVDACon! You did a great job
organising it, and I loved the livestream tweeting of the keynote (although
I mostly caught up on that after).

I'm just collating the questions now and wanted to check - what format did
you want responses to these in?

Text is probably easiest, unless you wanted the answers recorded to add on
to the end of the original? I also have some questions from the Spanish
keynote.

Quentin.

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>






Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Robert Hänggi
 

I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert

On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
One extra could be put in in this reguard.

I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
is used by both blind and sighted.

I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
other options.

A discord server is free enough.

I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.

Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
zoom if thats what people want.

I have been on webinars that are like this.

Now though, who are we serving here?

With exception with the developments and where blindness and
accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.

And its quite short in any case.

But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
mention my name.

https://accessadvisors.nz/

This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.

They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.

As a collective they are ok.

These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
distribution.

Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.

Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.

If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.

The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.

The main event is the international con.

I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.

Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
someone else.


You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
bigger.

And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
problem depending what and where, etc.

I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.



On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:

* This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
* This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
the product.
* NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.

I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
stream.

The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
serving and wish to reach out to.

I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.

Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Shaun Everiss
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
*To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
wants to contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
a thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
apis and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.

On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
available and this means that people will still be able to talk
without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
where every one can speak.

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
strategically in which direction we want to go.

Best

Adriani

*Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
<intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
*An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
*Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
changed how people consume information (online presence will
be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
<intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
Behalf Of *lauracornwell
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
*To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
with team talk would be better .






Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

One extra could be put in in this reguard.

I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord is used by both blind and sighted.

I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be other options.

A discord server is free enough.

I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.

Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like zoom if thats what people want.

I have been on webinars that are like this.

Now though, who are we serving here?

With exception with the developments and where blindness and accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.

And its quite short in any case.

But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and mention my name.

https://accessadvisors.nz/

This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.

They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.

As a collective they are ok.

These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for distribution.

Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.

Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.

If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.

The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.

The main event is the international con.

I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.

Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with someone else.


You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be bigger.

And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a problem depending what and where, etc.

I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.



On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:

  • This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
  • This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss the product.
  • NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals: this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.

 

I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character, and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live stream.

The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are serving and wish to reach out to.

I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting. If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.

Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone wants to contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is a thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much, the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk apis and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.

 

 

On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high professional level and including all time zones of the world. This is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

 

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be available and this means that people will still be able to talk without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words, being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format where every one can speak.

 

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think strategically in which direction we want to go.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

 

 

 

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

hi all.
i have never hosted a zoom meeting or checked their plans so i dont
know how difficult moderation is.
but i know to join a meeting on zoom its not difficult to configure.
just sign in to your google account or facebook account and click a
link and enter a meeting.
then if you are a tech you can turn on original sound, noise cancel
and all that.
although its a financial burden but it will get more users.
I would suggest the following.
1. consult zoom for a plan without recording and if possible remove
the limit of people that can enter cause we dont know how many people
will enter.
2. this wont be easy to organize but have a confrence may be in 6
months only for new or basic nvda users who want to learn more about
nvda.
this will test the platform.
3. i will contribute by recording the confrence and doing editing.
i am learning reaper more now so next year if all goes well i will be
better in editing.
these are just my suggestions but let the committee decide.

On 12/9/20, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer to
this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:

* This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion to create
a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users that goes beyond
mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale of NVDACon (to be honest
with you all).
* This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events like this
where the NVDA community can come together to discuss the product.
* NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals: this will
necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.



I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like this is
due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character, and scale.
Earlier iterations of this event were successful when considering that the
event was limited to the NVDA community. This changed in 2016 and 2017 when
the gathering became larger and more prominent, evidenced by more mentions
in blindness presses and presentation line-up. When considering the
pandemic, this year was a success, made more prominent as people tuned into
events via a live stream.

The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in places
such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language communities means
we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to this, it was word of mouth
that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of course folks tuning in via TeamTalk
had slightly better experiences as they had live access to presenters and
the conference in general. But now the conference was streamed live and
keynote was translated into Spanish a few hours after the main event, and
you can see why we cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks
will need to think carefully about the target audience and the communities
they are serving and wish to reach out to.

I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting. If
NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the community
thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community and fans, then
NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has found itself in: a
niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that NVDACon should become
more global and mainstream in terms of audience outreach and creative
content, then folks need to make strategic decisions early and move the
event in a direction that restores its reputation as a source of useful
information and filled with timely analyses and critiques of NVDA and its
community. Choosing a platform is just one of the things to be decided based
on an overall vision and strategy; others include content that does
contribute meaningful information, willingness to listen to critics, and
professional event execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a
professional gathering of the community that must now consider its impact on
outside audiences.

Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.

Cheers,

Joseph







From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to
a different platform, Twitter feed



I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts it,
who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of those
speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone wants to
contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a platform I
woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but teamtalk is widely
used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we can
use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is a
thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google platform
since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the talks,
the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of aim,
yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much, the only
mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk apis
and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.





On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against Team Talk.
However, I am still struggling with users who think that moderating in Zoom
is easier than in Team Talk. For an user it is easy to join, that’s true.
But don’t forget that we are doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the
community does not expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars
or something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am sorry but
at least speaking for myself I will not be available to moderate a 3 days
conference in classroom mode at a high professional level and including all
time zones of the world. This is simply too much for a voluntar work like we
do.



If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be available
and this means that people will still be able to talk without raising hands,
especially in long breaks. We simply do not have enough moderators to run a
three days conference completely in classroom mode. So if the community does
not respect simple rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each
other’s words, being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much faster than
we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less participants but
qualitative input and useful content rather than one with a lot of
participants and messy audio and lots of people who don’t respect simple
rules. But this risk exists both in Team Talk and Zoom or any other platform
when we are in an open format where every one can speak.



I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think strategically in
which direction we want to go.



Best

Adriani





Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
<mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von
Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to
a different platform, Twitter feed



Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3
people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference
that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is
handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that
would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting
starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100
people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't
know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly
event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I
don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the
rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and
asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple
weeks a year.







On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it
is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon
held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more
audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the
community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform
that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the
mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a
balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will
consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to
respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed
how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and
so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific
community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a
global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream
strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
<mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of
lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to
a different platform, Twitter feed



Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think
that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but
not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that
staying with team talk would be better .








--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hi all,

Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:

  • This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
  • This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss the product.
  • NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals: this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.

 

I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character, and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live stream.

The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are serving and wish to reach out to.

I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting. If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.

Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone wants to contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is a thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much, the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk apis and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.

 

 

On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high professional level and including all time zones of the world. This is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

 

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be available and this means that people will still be able to talk without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words, being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format where every one can speak.

 

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think strategically in which direction we want to go.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

 

 

 

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone wants to contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is a thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much, the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk apis and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.



On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high professional level and including all time zones of the world. This is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

 

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be available and this means that people will still be able to talk without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words, being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format where every one can speak.

 

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think strategically in which direction we want to go.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

 

 

 

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Adriani Botez
 

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high professional level and including all time zones of the world. This is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

 

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be available and this means that people will still be able to talk without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words, being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format where every one can speak.

 

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think strategically in which direction we want to go.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

 

 

 

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.




On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Iván Novegil
 

Hi Adriani.


I'm interested on reviewing the exact budget, with plans, features and so on, if you have any. As coordinator of this year's Spanish meeting I want to start preparing some things for 2021's and the platform was one of the things some attendants asked for a change.

Nimer, I don't agree with you at all. The only thing that makes TeamTalk a less ideal platform is the difficulty of configuring its options and, including the fact of entering server and port details. apart from this, it offers a complete set of moderation tools; which moderators hadn't used them during the first part of openning forum doesn't mean that they don't exist, in fact during sessions with speakers classroom mode was used. furthermore, although Zoom doesn't seem to have a poor audio quality, TeamTalk is more configurable with regard to that. For example, in 2019 Spanish Meeting we had a speaker who was explaining track panning with Audacity through a live demo, and he had to request the channel to be switched into a stereo codec. with TeamTalk we were able to do that. Echo cancellation and noise reduction are not better due to that philosophy, which is clearly established by TeamTalk devs, of priorizing audio quality. Another deficient thing of TeamTalk is the support by email, but that affects server admins only and is not the main debate here.

I find your complain legitimate, and I understand that TeamTalk is not easy to configure for a lot of users, but saying that its features are poor is not a good point IMO.

BTW, I think my partner Jose has sent this to robert as well, but if you are interested, we have created a set of "run and connect" TeamTalk clients.

https://github.com/nvda-es/arrancayconecta


Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@...


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- @nvda_es

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O 08/12/2020 á(s) 5:43, Adriani Botez escribiu:

Dear all,

 

it was a pleasure to work with all of you together also this year, especially Robert, Laura, Austin and Derek really great job in organizing it this year. Even though I couldn’t participate in organizational meetings and so on, I tried to follow the conversations and to help when was possible. I have the feeling that the NVDACon team gets stronger and grows in a sustainable way which makes me really lucky to see.

 

Regarding zoom, I explored this opportunity last year and had two long conversations with the Zoom people trying to negociate a meaningful plan which is teylored for NVDACon. I ended up at about 145 USD per month, if we include full recording features, 10 moderator accounts, full webinar features and so on. My conclusion was as follows:

  • The best way would be to rent a Zoom pro account from an organization which already uses it regularly (cheapest way I would say)
  • Zoom doesn’t offer weekend plans
  • We need a backup through an NGO to get discount
  • We need an account for NVDACon to begin fund raising throughout the community (i.e. a paypal account)
  • We need to think about an alternative conference format, moderating a Zoom conference which takes three days long is really really not an easy job, especially if we want to avoid what happened during Opening forum this year.

 

Let me know your thoughts and I can start negociations with them again.

I will also try to find a solution for getting a Zoom pro account to test a one day conference, maybe in February.

 

Doug Lee and me we’re preparing an overview of the platforms out there and will try to find what the best is for NVDACon.

 

Best regards

Adriani

 

 

Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Iván Novegil via groups.io
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 03:18
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hi.

 

According to what I've seen, Zoom can be paid month-by-month, but the web offers anual plans by default. Anual prices are usually equal to 10 months.

Additionally, for nonprofit organizations, at least here in spain, zoom seems to offer a 50% discount on all plans, 1 plan request per organization per year, via Techsoup. As Techsoup is an international company, I think similar offers would be available in other countries.

I don't think moving from TeamTalk is a fundamental need for conferences such as NVDACon or our local meeting, but to be honest some people was complaining about TeamTalk also during our last conference, held in last month; however there wasn't such a strong debate as in NVDACon's openning forum.

 

Regards.

 

Congratulations on all your work. Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@...


NVDA.es
              Logo
Comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA | Proyecto NVDA.es
- www.NVDA.es
- @nvda_es

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O 08/12/2020 á(s) 2:20, Robert Hänggi escribiu:

Thanks Quentin for the kind words
 
I must say it was such a pleasure and so inspirational to work with
you one to one that I didn't mind staying up wide into the small hours
(like now where it is 2:00 am here).
Especially in the first weeks when I felt like doing a one-man show
and reaching out to you was soothing to my mental balance.
Our "conspiracy" produced some great ideas of which not all could make
it into the conference as yet but they are burnt into our sub
conscience (or just the email archive) so that they could pop up any
time again.
I'm looking forward to work with you again in whichever role that might be.
Cheers
Robert
 
On 08/12/2020, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
Congratulations Joseph, Robert, Derek, Austin, Laura and everyone involved
on running a very successful and well received NVDACon, great job!
 
Joseph, you will be missed, but you have setup a great foundation and got a
talented group of people holding the fort so enjoy your time away from
running the show next year!
 
In terms of cost, NV Access are certainly willing to contribute financially
to whatever solution is going to work best for the conference organisers
and participants - although of course we need to be able to justify the
expense as well, and it may be that approaching a particular platform about
sponsorship is worthwhile.
 
For now, congratulations again on a great conference, and I look forward to
hearing the recordings!
 
Quentin.
 
On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:48 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
wrote:
 
Hi
 
Again, for reference, here is the pricing page of zoom:
https://zoom.us/pricing
 
I'm horrified when I check the feature we want and read the total cost.
I've read comments like "If they can't afford $10 per month, I will
gladly pay it from my own pocket".
This is very misleading. The minimum plan for our purpose costs $200 per
year
The ideal plan (with phone calling, enough participants, live
streaming, multiple rooms, replays, better website integration and so
on) amounts to $1200 per year.
 
Some people said that we could use their accounts.
I don't know how you feel about it but I don't like the thought to be
dependant on others.
Nonetheless, we will check out the options and Doug lee (as Joseph
said) is composing a workbook with all the possibilities.
 
Cheers
Robert
 
On 08/12/2020, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:
Yes you are correct James. I wonder between NV Access and
individuals/non for proffit orgs around the world with some promotion
etc. could raise money to use Zoom? If the NVDA community worldwide
starts something like this now that would be great. Yeah I know many
folks can't donate, but if we get said orgs for the blind on board that
would be a running start.
 
On 12/7/2020 6:27 PM, James Teh wrote:
I'd respectfully point out that Zoom is not free - it actually ends up
being quite costly for something like NVDACon - so it's not simply a
matter of popular opinion. Any proposal to move to an alternative
platform also needs to consider how that platform will be funded
and/or set up.
 
Jamie
 
On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:08 AM Lino Morales <linomorales001@...
<mailto:linomorales001@...>> wrote:
 
    I didn't partake in the Con this year, however I vote for Zoom for
    2021 and later. As you stated Joseph the hosts have more control.
    I'm been crowing about getting Zoom for the past couple of years
    pree pandemic. Glad it went well and hope to hear the recordings
soon.
 
    On 12/7/2020 4:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
 
    Hi all,
 
    First, it was great to see many people at NVDACon 2020. I
    personally consider this a successful event despite the pandemic
    and its effects. Although we had issues in the beginning, it ran
    smoothly, especially as the post-keynote QnA was very extensive.
 
    A few thank you’s:
 
      * Robert Hangi: chairing the organizing committee and upgrading
        the pre-keynote experience.
      * Laura Cornwell and friends: effective promotion, and for
        streaming parts of the conference.
      * Austin Pinto and other recording engineers.
      * Derek Riemer: infrastructure and providing support.
      * NV Access crew: another amazing keynote.
      * Presenters: for diversifying the topics.
 
    And most importantly, audience members who shared their passion
    for NVDA and giving organizers countless encouragements. Hope the
    event served as a healing moment for you.
 
    Second, based on actual experience and post-event feedback, I
    would like to suggest that organizers look into a different
    platform for NVDACon 2021 and beyond. Of course we have to think
    about accessibility and outreach, but mostly to help future
    conference moderators perform their tasks more efficiently. Zoom
    is a possibility, and Doug Lee apparently organized an Excel
    spreadsheet with potential platforms. I would also like to
    suggest that when a platform is chosen, organizers meet regularly
    using that platform to familiarize themselves as to how to use it
    effectively.
 
    Lastly, NVDACon Twitter feed is still alive. The next post from
    there will be done when recordings become available.
 
    I announced this after the closing forum, but this is to affirm
    that I will not be participating in NVDACon planning for next
    year. However, if people want me to, I can give coaching for
    presenters upon request – mostly to go over online presentation
    etiquette, how to respond to comments, and refining small things
    in content. Apart from that, I will be your biggest fan from the
    distance.
 
    May the NVDACon continue to bridge the community for years to
come.
 
    Cheers,
 
    Joseph
 
    Joseph S. Lee
 
    Student (communication studies), California State University, Los
    Angeles
 
    Code contributor and add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader project
 
    Certified NVDA Expert, 2019
 
    Founding chair, NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon –
    2014 to 2016
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
 
Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Hi,

Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close. Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has changed how people consume information (online presence will be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement, an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from mainstream strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> On Behalf Of lauracornwell
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
To: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

lauracornwell
 

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying with team talk would be better .


Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Adriani Botez
 

No definitely not a two-men decision. We will discuss this during next organizational meeting I would say.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 08.12.2020 um 07:36 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@gmail.com>:

On 08/12/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,



it was a pleasure to work with all of you together also this year,
especially Robert, Laura, Austin and Derek really great job in organizing it
this year. Even though I couldn’t participate in organizational meetings and
so on, I tried to follow the conversations and to help when was possible. I
have the feeling that the NVDACon team gets stronger and grows in a
sustainable way which makes me really lucky to see.



Regarding zoom, I explored this opportunity last year and had two long
conversations with the Zoom people trying to negociate a meaningful plan
which is teylored for NVDACon. I ended up at about 145 USD per month, if we
include full recording features, 10 moderator accounts, full webinar
features and so on. My conclusion was as follows:

* The best way would be to rent a Zoom pro account from an organization
which already uses it regularly (cheapest way I would say)
Exactly so although I don't like the affiliation, dependants and
overall problems on coordination that it is involved.

* Zoom doesn’t offer weekend plans
* We need a backup through an NGO to get discount
* We need an account for NVDACon to begin fund raising throughout the
community (i.e. a paypal account)
Although we have a donate button, I wonder if there were ever payments
made through it to the NVDA project.
All in all, it needs much more than a button. We need funnels, opt-ins
and most important a mailing list (gimp like) to bind users
permanently.
This isn't just for fund raising but also to extract valid data about
the regular emails that we send (were they opened, were the links
clicked etc).
Apart from that, it is just convenient to set up emails beforehand and
reminders (e.g. for the conference start) go out automatically.

* We need to think about an alternative conference format, moderating a Zoom
conference which takes three days long is really really not an easy job,
especially if we want to avoid what happened during Opening forum this
year.
As a side-note, did someone ever attend a zoom meeting like our forums
where any user can speak at any time?
The meetings that I've attended were all just directed by a single
host and participants had to raise their hands to speak.



Let me know your thoughts and I can start negociations with them again.

I will also try to find a solution for getting a Zoom pro account to test a
one day conference, maybe in February.



Doug Lee and me we’re preparing an overview of the platforms out there and
will try to find what the best is for NVDACon.
The features that go into the workbook are not a two-men decision, are they?
Because that's how one could interpret this sentence.

Best
Robert


Best regards

Adriani





Von: intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Iván
Novegil via groups.io
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 03:18
An: intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to
a different platform, Twitter feed



Hi.



According to what I've seen, Zoom can be paid month-by-month, but the web
offers anual plans by default. Anual prices are usually equal to 10 months.

Additionally, for nonprofit organizations, at least here in spain, zoom
seems to offer a 50% discount on all plans, 1 plan request per organization
per year, via Techsoup. As Techsoup is an international company, I think
similar offers would be available in other countries.

I don't think moving from TeamTalk is a fundamental need for conferences
such as NVDACon or our local meeting, but to be honest some people was
complaining about TeamTalk also during our last conference, held in last
month; however there wasn't such a strong debate as in NVDACon's openning
forum.



Regards.



Congratulations on all your work. Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
ivan.novegil@nvda.es <mailto:ivan.novegil@nvda.es>
<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>


Comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA | Proyecto NVDA.es
- www.NVDA.es <https://nvda.es>
- @nvda_es <https://twitter.com/nvda_es>

Usuario do NVDA en galego

***Esta mensaxe e/ou os seus adxuntos están dirixidos ao seu destinatario e
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O 08/12/2020 á(s) 2:20, Robert Hänggi escribiu:

Thanks Quentin for the kind words

I must say it was such a pleasure and so inspirational to work with
you one to one that I didn't mind staying up wide into the small hours
(like now where it is 2:00 am here).
Especially in the first weeks when I felt like doing a one-man show
and reaching out to you was soothing to my mental balance.
Our "conspiracy" produced some great ideas of which not all could make
it into the conference as yet but they are burnt into our sub
conscience (or just the email archive) so that they could pop up any
time again.
I'm looking forward to work with you again in whichever role that might be.
Cheers
Robert

On 08/12/2020, Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@nvaccess.org>
<quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:

Congratulations Joseph, Robert, Derek, Austin, Laura and everyone involved
on running a very successful and well received NVDACon, great job!

Joseph, you will be missed, but you have setup a great foundation and got a
talented group of people holding the fort so enjoy your time away from
running the show next year!

In terms of cost, NV Access are certainly willing to contribute financially
to whatever solution is going to work best for the conference organisers
and participants - although of course we need to be able to justify the
expense as well, and it may be that approaching a particular platform about
sponsorship is worthwhile.

For now, congratulations again on a great conference, and I look forward to
hearing the recordings!

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:48 AM Robert Hänggi
<mailto:aarjay.robert@gmail.com> <aarjay.robert@gmail.com>
wrote:


Hi

Again, for reference, here is the pricing page of zoom:
https://zoom.us/pricing

I'm horrified when I check the feature we want and read the total cost.
I've read comments like "If they can't afford $10 per month, I will
gladly pay it from my own pocket".
This is very misleading. The minimum plan for our purpose costs $200 per
year
The ideal plan (with phone calling, enough participants, live
streaming, multiple rooms, replays, better website integration and so
on) amounts to $1200 per year.

Some people said that we could use their accounts.
I don't know how you feel about it but I don't like the thought to be
dependant on others.
Nonetheless, we will check out the options and Doug lee (as Joseph
said) is composing a workbook with all the possibilities.

Cheers
Robert

On 08/12/2020, Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>
<linomorales001@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes you are correct James. I wonder between NV Access and
individuals/non for proffit orgs around the world with some promotion
etc. could raise money to use Zoom? If the NVDA community worldwide
starts something like this now that would be great. Yeah I know many
folks can't donate, but if we get said orgs for the blind on board that
would be a running start.

On 12/7/2020 6:27 PM, James Teh wrote:

I'd respectfully point out that Zoom is not free - it actually ends up
being quite costly for something like NVDACon - so it's not simply a
matter of popular opinion. Any proposal to move to an alternative
platform also needs to consider how that platform will be funded
and/or set up.

Jamie

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:08 AM Lino Morales <linomorales001@gmail.com
<mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>
<mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com> <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>>
wrote:

I didn't partake in the Con this year, however I vote for Zoom for
2021 and later. As you stated Joseph the hosts have more control.
I'm been crowing about getting Zoom for the past couple of years
pree pandemic. Glad it went well and hope to hear the recordings
soon.

On 12/7/2020 4:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:


Hi all,

First, it was great to see many people at NVDACon 2020. I
personally consider this a successful event despite the pandemic
and its effects. Although we had issues in the beginning, it ran
smoothly, especially as the post-keynote QnA was very extensive.

A few thank you’s:

* Robert Hangi: chairing the organizing committee and upgrading
the pre-keynote experience.
* Laura Cornwell and friends: effective promotion, and for
streaming parts of the conference.
* Austin Pinto and other recording engineers.
* Derek Riemer: infrastructure and providing support.
* NV Access crew: another amazing keynote.
* Presenters: for diversifying the topics.

And most importantly, audience members who shared their passion
for NVDA and giving organizers countless encouragements. Hope the
event served as a healing moment for you.

Second, based on actual experience and post-event feedback, I
would like to suggest that organizers look into a different
platform for NVDACon 2021 and beyond. Of course we have to think
about accessibility and outreach, but mostly to help future
conference moderators perform their tasks more efficiently. Zoom
is a possibility, and Doug Lee apparently organized an Excel
spreadsheet with potential platforms. I would also like to
suggest that when a platform is chosen, organizers meet regularly
using that platform to familiarize themselves as to how to use it
effectively.

Lastly, NVDACon Twitter feed is still alive. The next post from
there will be done when recordings become available.

I announced this after the closing forum, but this is to affirm
that I will not be participating in NVDACon planning for next
year. However, if people want me to, I can give coaching for
presenters upon request – mostly to go over online presentation
etiquette, how to respond to comments, and refining small things
in content. Apart from that, I will be your biggest fan from the
distance.

May the NVDACon continue to bridge the community for years to
come.

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph S. Lee

Student (communication studies), California State University, Los
Angeles

Code contributor and add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader project

Certified NVDA Expert, 2019

Founding chair, NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon –
2014 to 2016



















--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
<https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
























Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Robert and NVDA Con team:

First, thank you for all your efforts in putting together NVDA Con. NVDA Con went about as well as it could have. I am thankful to all of your efforts.

For my part in the chaos of the opening forum, I would like to apologize.
  • I attempted to come on opening forum, and explain why I believed that Teamtalk is not an ideal platform. Moderation is not as powerful as it is on other platforms, users find TeamTalk fiddly with audio particularly when or if they unplug and plug in devices, etc, TeamTalk doesn't really have echo cancellation, NVDA Con is an international conference and should not be pleased with 60 participants, particularly when more than half were organizers, moderators, and NVAccess staff, and so on. I feel very strongly that TeamTalk is a very poor choice of platform for an international conference, and I have brought this up repeatedly over the years.
  • Instead of being given the opportunity to speak, I was interrupted, and organizers defended TeamTalk as being a great platform.
  • I was unprofessional in my attempts to illustrate, during a small part of the opening forum, why it is a bad idea to use TeamTalk as a platform at this point. I used various nicknames, and adjusted my gain level pretty high, and caused echo while others were attempting to speak, particularly for those individuals who were attempting to interrupt me from speaking. This is not good for an international forum, and I apologize for this. I did not repeat this for the remainder of the conference, and will not do so again.

Even in this thread exchange, I am seeing organizers still say that TeamTalk is a good choice for hosting a conference. Even with all that happened during opening forum, even with the keynote running into the issues that it ran into, we still see people defending TeamTalk as a platform. I was unable to enjoy the keynote live as I kept being kicked out and needed to rejoin a number of times. Each time, because of the number of users, there was a noticeable lag, and at one point, NVDA crashed. This is on a quite powerful modern machin with 16 GB of ram and a gigabit Internet connection.

If the cost of running a Zoom room for the conference is as stated in this thread, for ten moderators, and if it then allows for streaming things like the keynote to Youtube, and if it allows greater flexibility and ability of users, developers, and interested parties all around the world to join, and if it can better enable NVDA con to reach many more users, thus being more representative of the NVDA community, then that cost is a small one to pay. If NVAccess cannot get a lower rate by working with Zoom, I am happy to donate the cost for this for next year's con. Recording would be simpler, many of the audio issues would be sorted, moderators have substantially more control, and audio quality for certain events can be enhanced with minimal jitter issues, disconnects, drop-outs, and issues with the time it takes to reconnect. Presenters and participants can easily connect by phone call, mobile app, on the web, using desktop apps on Windows, Mac, and Linux, and so on. I don't really frankly understand why there is still a question of whether this is or is not a good idea.

Again, I hope the organizers will accept my apologies for contributing to the issues with the opening forum. Thank you all for your hard work into this year's con.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 10:10 PM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
On 08/12/2020, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Thanks Robert!
>
> Now I don't want to scare you off, but particularly if you are still the
> chair next year, I've got YOU in mind to do an NVDA story on in the lead up
> to the conference like we did with Justin this year :)

I'm not that jumpy, hahaha.
Good idea, I could start by recording a personal Journal so that I
don't forget what happened when.

Cheers
Robert

>
> Quentin.
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:20 PM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Quentin for the kind words
>>
>> I must say it was such a pleasure and so inspirational to work with
>> you one to one that I didn't mind staying up wide into the small hours
>> (like now where it is 2:00 am here).
>> Especially in the first weeks when I felt like doing a one-man show
>> and reaching out to you was soothing to my mental balance.
>> Our "conspiracy" produced some great ideas of which not all could make
>> it into the conference as yet but they are burnt into our sub
>> conscience (or just the email archive) so that they could pop up any
>> time again.
>> I'm looking forward to work with you again in whichever role that might
>> be.
>> Cheers
>> Robert
>>
>> On 08/12/2020, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
>> > Congratulations Joseph, Robert, Derek, Austin, Laura and everyone
>> involved
>> > on running a very successful and well received NVDACon, great job!
>> >
>> > Joseph, you will be missed, but you have setup a great foundation and
>> got a
>> > talented group of people holding the fort so enjoy your time away from
>> > running the show next year!
>> >
>> > In terms of cost, NV Access are certainly willing to contribute
>> financially
>> > to whatever solution is going to work best for the conference
>> > organisers
>> > and participants - although of course we need to be able to justify the
>> > expense as well, and it may be that approaching a particular platform
>> about
>> > sponsorship is worthwhile.
>> >
>> > For now, congratulations again on a great conference, and I look
>> > forward
>> to
>> > hearing the recordings!
>> >
>> > Quentin.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:48 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> Again, for reference, here is the pricing page of zoom:
>> >> https://zoom.us/pricing
>> >>
>> >> I'm horrified when I check the feature we want and read the total
>> >> cost.
>> >> I've read comments like "If they can't afford $10 per month, I will
>> >> gladly pay it from my own pocket".
>> >> This is very misleading. The minimum plan for our purpose costs $200
>> >> per
>> >> year
>> >> The ideal plan (with phone calling, enough participants, live
>> >> streaming, multiple rooms, replays, better website integration and so
>> >> on) amounts to $1200 per year.
>> >>
>> >> Some people said that we could use their accounts.
>> >> I don't know how you feel about it but I don't like the thought to be
>> >> dependant on others.
>> >> Nonetheless, we will check out the options and Doug lee (as Joseph
>> >> said) is composing a workbook with all the possibilities.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Robert
>> >>
>> >> On 08/12/2020, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:
>> >> > Yes you are correct James. I wonder between NV Access and
>> >> > individuals/non for proffit orgs around the world with some
>> >> > promotion
>> >> > etc. could raise money to use Zoom? If the NVDA community worldwide
>> >> > starts something like this now that would be great. Yeah I know many
>> >> > folks can't donate, but if we get said orgs for the blind on board
>> that
>> >> > would be a running start.
>> >> >
>> >> > On 12/7/2020 6:27 PM, James Teh wrote:
>> >> >> I'd respectfully point out that Zoom is not free - it actually ends
>> up
>> >> >> being quite costly for something like NVDACon - so it's not simply
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> matter of popular opinion. Any proposal to move to an alternative
>> >> >> platform also needs to consider how that platform will be funded
>> >> >> and/or set up.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jamie
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:08 AM Lino Morales <
>> linomorales001@...
>> >> >> <mailto:linomorales001@...>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>     I didn't partake in the Con this year, however I vote for Zoom
>> for
>> >> >>     2021 and later. As you stated Joseph the hosts have more
>> >> >> control.
>> >> >>     I'm been crowing about getting Zoom for the past couple of
>> >> >> years
>> >> >>     pree pandemic. Glad it went well and hope to hear the
>> >> >> recordings
>> >> >> soon.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>     On 12/7/2020 4:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Hi all,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     First, it was great to see many people at NVDACon 2020. I
>> >> >>>     personally consider this a successful event despite the
>> >> >>> pandemic
>> >> >>>     and its effects. Although we had issues in the beginning, it
>> >> >>> ran
>> >> >>>     smoothly, especially as the post-keynote QnA was very
>> >> >>> extensive.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     A few thank you’s:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>       * Robert Hangi: chairing the organizing committee and
>> upgrading
>> >> >>>         the pre-keynote experience.
>> >> >>>       * Laura Cornwell and friends: effective promotion, and for
>> >> >>>         streaming parts of the conference.
>> >> >>>       * Austin Pinto and other recording engineers.
>> >> >>>       * Derek Riemer: infrastructure and providing support.
>> >> >>>       * NV Access crew: another amazing keynote.
>> >> >>>       * Presenters: for diversifying the topics.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     And most importantly, audience members who shared their
>> >> >>> passion
>> >> >>>     for NVDA and giving organizers countless encouragements. Hope
>> the
>> >> >>>     event served as a healing moment for you.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Second, based on actual experience and post-event feedback, I
>> >> >>>     would like to suggest that organizers look into a different
>> >> >>>     platform for NVDACon 2021 and beyond. Of course we have to
>> >> >>> think
>> >> >>>     about accessibility and outreach, but mostly to help future
>> >> >>>     conference moderators perform their tasks more efficiently.
>> >> >>> Zoom
>> >> >>>     is a possibility, and Doug Lee apparently organized an Excel
>> >> >>>     spreadsheet with potential platforms. I would also like to
>> >> >>>     suggest that when a platform is chosen, organizers meet
>> regularly
>> >> >>>     using that platform to familiarize themselves as to how to use
>> it
>> >> >>>     effectively.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Lastly, NVDACon Twitter feed is still alive. The next post
>> >> >>> from
>> >> >>>     there will be done when recordings become available.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     I announced this after the closing forum, but this is to
>> >> >>> affirm
>> >> >>>     that I will not be participating in NVDACon planning for next
>> >> >>>     year. However, if people want me to, I can give coaching for
>> >> >>>     presenters upon request – mostly to go over online
>> >> >>> presentation
>> >> >>>     etiquette, how to respond to comments, and refining small
>> >> >>> things
>> >> >>>     in content. Apart from that, I will be your biggest fan from
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>>     distance.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     May the NVDACon continue to bridge the community for years to
>> >> >>> come.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Cheers,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Joseph
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Joseph S. Lee
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Student (communication studies), California State University,
>> Los
>> >> >>>     Angeles
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Code contributor and add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader
>> project
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Certified NVDA Expert, 2019
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>     Founding chair, NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon
>> >> >>> –
>> >> >>>     2014 to 2016
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Quentin Christensen
>> > Training and Support Manager
>> >
>> > Web: www.nvaccess.org
>> > Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>> > Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
>> > User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
>> > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> > Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>
>
>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

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