Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed


James Teh <jteh@...>
 

Keep in mind that Zoom is often per-seat licensing. So, you can't just borrow an account, since company users obviously can't just give up their passwords for security reasons, so that would require additional users to be added, thus increasing the cost for the company. Each host/moderator has to have a paid account.

Jamie


On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 1:58 PM derek riemer <driemer.riemer@...> wrote:
We have a plethora of blindness organizations we could ask to help out with the conference by borrowing their zoom conference that they use for other programs. If we approach them with empathy, compassion, and willingness to help support their programs financially, maybe we can work something out and avoid having to fund the whole thing ourselves.
Cheers,
Derek

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:01 PM Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

<grin>

Unfortunately while I am employed its not full time.

However when the next nvda con comes about, I guess there is no issues asking my bosses and see what they see.

The company is for accessibility, there is a good chance they will accept the conference yearly if necessary, not sure about rate but they are an accessibility company.

Of course it would be good if at that point whoever organised it asked me for it or went themselves.




On 10/12/2020 3:44 am, Iván Novegil via groups.io wrote:
I also know people that defends TeamTalk.
As you are employed and very independent, you can start collecting the money to fund Zoom or propose an alternative platform with similar features to TeamTalk. Then you would have to organize de conference, of course, earing people who says that NVDACon 2021 is a bad organized conference because they prefer TeamTalk.
Alternatively, you could develop a statistic on people who has problems with TeamTalk or a web streaming and what that problems are, so you can expose it instead of the thoughts of indeterminate users, who maybe not facing any problems with TeamTalk but they are so lazy as to get it, or who maybe dont exist.
Be reasonable. A thing is understanding your point, which for me is completely valid, and another agreeing with this type of rude comments.
Additionally, I dont think the openning forum is the right place to be heard regarding this. All of those who took part in platform debate could, for example, enjoy the conference and expose concerns through places such as this list.

Regards.

Iván Novegil Cancelas
Editor
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El 9 dic 2020, a las 15:29, Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> escribió:


Hello Robert,

And I leave you with my thoughts:

I did not create this thread, simply responded to it.

We are in agreement that my actions were not good.

I have heard from quite a number of users stating that they agree that the platform is a poor choice, and they wish for a change in platform.

If this list, the one where organizers reside, is a poor place to discuss this topic, then where in the world is a better one?

This is my last subject on this as it is abundantly clear that the organizers have decided to, instead of being responsive to the community at large, and instead of being representative of this community, instead of looking to actually be the global community conference of NVDA, it seems that, from the top down, NVDA Con is being known as a blindy event, using a piece of software that frankly only unemployed blind homebodies use, and instead of taking feedback on board, not just mine, but that of the community, this group has decided to bury its collective thumb up its butt and ignore the fact that a real problem exists, the identity of NVDA con. With the exception of, seemingly Joseph, who has seen the need for a platform change, others on this group seem to continue to make excuses for why it would be too hard to change, and why we need to remain entrenched where we stand.

With that, I will go back to my sideline role until next year, when I will try to, again, be heard, and have the community be heard. Good luck with your continuance of using an antiquated platform, and good luck advertising for, and attracting 30 users, plus another 20-30 who were there the entire time and were part of NVDA con planning. Good luck calling it an international conference representative of the community. As my donation is meaningless and not welcome, I will take it somewhere else, or maybe just use it to do something good for myself.

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:27 AM Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...> wrote:
I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
understand.
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yK1QndJSM )

Cheers
Robert


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> One extra could be put in in this reguard.
>
> I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
> enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
> is used by both blind and sighted.
>
> I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
> other options.
>
> A discord server is free enough.
>
> I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.
>
> Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
> lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
> zoom if thats what people want.
>
> I have been on webinars that are like this.
>
> Now though, who are we serving here?
>
> With exception with the developments and where blindness and
> accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
> those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.
>
> And its quite short in any case.
>
> But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
> mention my name.
>
> https://accessadvisors.nz/
>
> This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.
>
> They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
> most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.
>
> As a collective they are ok.
>
> These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
> with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for
> distribution.
>
> Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.
>
> Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
> broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.
>
> If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.
>
> The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.
>
> The main event is the international con.
>
> I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
> there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.
>
> Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
> helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
> someone else.
>
>
> You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be
> bigger.
>
> And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
> so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
> problem depending what and where, etc.
>
> I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.
>
>
>
> On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
>> to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:
>>
>>   * This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
>>     to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
>>     that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
>>     of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
>>   * This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
>>     like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
>>     the product.
>>   * NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
>>     this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.
>>
>> I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
>> this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
>> and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
>> considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
>> changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
>> prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
>> presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
>> success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live
>> stream.
>>
>> The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
>> places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
>> communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
>> this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
>> course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
>> they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
>> now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
>> Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
>> cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
>> think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
>> serving and wish to reach out to.
>>
>> I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
>> If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
>> community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
>> and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
>> found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
>> NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
>> outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
>> decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
>> reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
>> analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
>> is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
>> strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
>> information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
>> execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
>> of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.
>>
>> Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Shaun Everiss
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
>> *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
>> moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>> I agree, also who are we pandering to.
>>
>> I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
>> it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.
>>
>> I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
>> those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.
>>
>> Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
>> wants to contribute that would be fine.
>>
>> Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
>> platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
>> teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.
>>
>> The other way we could do this is skype.
>>
>> Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
>> can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
>> handle this.
>>
>> I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.
>>
>> We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
>> a thing that can happen in skype.
>>
>> I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
>> platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
>> like it.
>>
>> Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.
>>
>> The blind will not want or need videos.
>>
>> If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
>> talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.
>>
>> However the forums, probably not so much.
>>
>> I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
>> keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.
>>
>> I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
>> aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
>> the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.
>>
>> For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.
>>
>> Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
>> apis and that could work.
>>
>> We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.
>>
>> We will always have issues.
>>
>> On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:
>>
>>     I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
>>     Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
>>     that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
>>     it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
>>     doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
>>     expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
>>     something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
>>     sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
>>     moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
>>     professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
>>     is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.
>>
>>     If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
>>     available and this means that people will still be able to talk
>>     without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
>>     have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
>>     in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
>>     rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
>>     being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
>>     moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
>>     faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.
>>
>>     To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
>>     participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
>>     one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
>>     who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
>>     Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
>>     where every one can speak.
>>
>>     I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
>>     strategically in which direction we want to go.
>>
>>     Best
>>
>>     Adriani
>>
>>     *Von:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *Im
>>     Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
>>     *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
>>     *An:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>     *Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>     success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>     Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.
>>
>>     Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
>>     than 3 people for 40 minutes.
>>
>>     So someone will have to pay to run zoom.
>>
>>     Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.
>>
>>     Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
>>     conference that would be different.
>>
>>     But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.
>>
>>     I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
>>     meeting is handled is for the conference.
>>
>>     The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
>>     that would mean someone else hosting it.
>>
>>     Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
>>     meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
>>     a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.
>>
>>     No one knows how many will attend a conference.
>>
>>     Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.
>>
>>     Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
>>     I don't know.
>>
>>     Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
>>     yearly event 1 time.
>>
>>     Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
>>     year, but I don't have that.
>>
>>     There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
>>     about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
>>     conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
>>     weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.
>>
>>     On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
>>         platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
>>         dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
>>         demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
>>         personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
>>         for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
>>         if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
>>         should use a platform that allows more audience participation.
>>
>>         The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
>>         Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
>>         should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
>>         and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
>>         through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
>>         it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
>>         changed how people consume information (online presence will
>>         be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
>>         appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
>>         audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
>>         an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
>>         strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
>>         mainstream strategies.
>>
>>         Cheers,
>>
>>         Joseph
>>
>>         *From:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         <intl@NVDACon.groups.io> <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io> *On
>>         Behalf Of *lauracornwell
>>         *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
>>         *To:* intl@NVDACon.groups.io <mailto:intl@NVDACon.groups.io>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
>>         success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed
>>
>>         Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
>>         zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
>>         could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
>>         weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
>>         with team talk would be better .
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







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Nimer Jaber

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