Re: NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Robert Hänggi

I won't further participate in the discussion in this thread as it
seems not to be the right place nor order of procedure and the thread
name itself is either poor choice or some morbid joke that I don't
I find it personally rather silly to act up like in kindergarten only
to hit a point home. Despite the fact that offering to pay for the
first conference on the Zoom platform is doubtless very generous,
there is no way that we could probably accept that.
It would look like a lobbyist got his will through some sort of indirect bribe.
Not only that, it seems that users and moderators aim for multiple
gatherings in a smaller frame during the year and thus we wouldn't be
able to live on a single month donation.
It is an entirely different thing if we can guarantee a more or less
steady funding through a multitude of users.
We will certainly strive for that goal but it needs some setup first
(we have currently neither budget nor any bank or paypal account).
I beg you to be patient and to wait until the taskforce21 (evaluation
of platform possibilities and requirements) has done its work.

I leave you with a quote that seems to me exactly fitting the situation:
"We are in a time that is increasingly fractured. ...
if you look at the world right now. If you look at the news.
If you look at the news coverage. If you look at any controversy that we see:
Something has changed
and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings
to matter, more than the facts.
And I think that is toxic to democracy because if there is one thing
we have to have:
to be able to have this discussion, to be able to learn, to live with
people that we disagree with.
We can't have a conversation about what we should do
We can't have a conversation about where we're going,
if we can't agree on where we are,
if we can't agree on what is happening.
Facts have to matter more than feelings."
Edward Snowden
(at around 10:30 in )


On 09/12/2020, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
One extra could be put in in this reguard.

I do not use it because 1 I don't like the interface and 2, I just have
enough channels I am on, but if people really want to do this, dischord
is used by both blind and sighted.

I guess whatsapp and facebook messenger for those that care could be
other options.

A discord server is free enough.

I'd be against a total fan event, at least for the forums and chats.

Now there isn't anything in the rules saying that we couldn't put
lightning talks, keynotes, and development discussions to something like
zoom if thats what people want.

I have been on webinars that are like this.

Now though, who are we serving here?

With exception with the developments and where blindness and
accessibility meet mainstream technologies and we do try to get into
those where we can, a lot of this is a disabled event.

And its quite short in any case.

But if the community want to go with it go here and email them, and
mention my name.

This is the link to the company I work for as a tester of various things.

They have been my main source of income this year and have assimilated
most of the local companies, and charity access teams I have been.

As a collective they are ok.

These guys could previde some stuff, though there would be cash involved
with various things so I do think that the con keep doing recordings for

Then again, I am unsure on how zoom handles not for proffit organisations.

Idealy though, you would want to allow various forums either to
broadcast simultainiously or at least have options.

If zoom is used there is options of phoning in.

The other thing is, how big do we want this to go.

The main event is the international con.

I don't usually appear due to timezones and the like at any of these and
there is no actual local event for me but thats fine.

Now if you guys want to get big, then maybe I can have a crack at
helping but I've never set my own event like this so it would be with
someone else.

You do realise though that if we go bigger then the team will need to be

And if thats done, not everyone will be able to meet at the propper time
so a lot of extras will have to be done by email which could be a
problem depending what and where, etc.

I don't spend all day in front of a workstation especially in the summer.

On 9/12/2020 12:42 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Shaun brought up an important point: who is this event for? The answer
to this will have stunning implications for next year’s organizers:

* This is strictly an NVDA community event: there was a suggestion
to create a regular meeting/workshop/gathering between NVDA users
that goes beyond mailing lists. For that, we don’t need the scale
of NVDACon (to be honest with you all).
* This is a blindness specific event: well, there are other events
like this where the NVDA community can come together to discuss
the product.
* NVDACon should target outsiders, including sighted individuals:
this will necessitate moving TOWARD more prominent platforms.

I think some of the reasons for getting ourselves into a corner like
this is due to old assumptions regarding the NVDACon, its character,
and scale. Earlier iterations of this event were successful when
considering that the event was limited to the NVDA community. This
changed in 2016 and 2017 when the gathering became larger and more
prominent, evidenced by more mentions in blindness presses and
presentation line-up. When considering the pandemic, this year was a
success, made more prominent as people tuned into events via a live

The fact that we even had a live stream and willingness by people in
places such as Spain to translate the keynote for their language
communities means we have crossed a bridge of no return. Prior to
this, it was word of mouth that influenced NVDACon’s reputation. Of
course folks tuning in via TeamTalk had slightly better experiences as
they had live access to presenters and the conference in general. But
now the conference was streamed live and keynote was translated into
Spanish a few hours after the main event, and you can see why we
cannot go back to NvDACon of yesteryear. In short, folks will need to
think carefully about the target audience and the communities they are
serving and wish to reach out to.

I’m sure some of us do not want NVDACon to become another fan meeting.
If NVDACon did become a fan meeting, held using a platform that the
community thinks is acceptable and accessible only by the community
and fans, then NVDACon will not be able to escape the corner it has
found itself in: a niche event. If next year’s organizers decide that
NVDACon should become more global and mainstream in terms of audience
outreach and creative content, then folks need to make strategic
decisions early and move the event in a direction that restores its
reputation as a source of useful information and filled with timely
analyses and critiques of NVDA and its community. Choosing a platform
is just one of the things to be decided based on an overall vision and
strategy; others include content that does contribute meaningful
information, willingness to listen to critics, and professional event
execution. NVDACon is not a fan meeting; it’s a professional gathering
of the community that must now consider its impact on outside audiences.

Some important suggestions and recommendations forthcoming.



*From:* <> *On Behalf Of
*Shaun Everiss
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 2:57 PM
*Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis: success,
moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

I agree, also who are we pandering to.

I know people stream in obs but to be honest, unless a sightling hosts
it, who will be able to do that sort of thing.

I guess we could stream the conference on youtube and have pictures of
those speaking or something, but really this aint for a sighted audiance.

Now, saying that, we are backed by google and others so if someone
wants to contribute that would be fine.

Personally, while I can use zoom and yes its good for a job, as a
platform I woouldn't probably bother with it, I mean it works but
teamtalk is widely used by the blind and its still being developed.

The other way we could do this is skype.

Another thing we could try is microsoft teams but I have no idea if we
can use teams as personal users or if we need a business adress to
handle this.

I don't think teams is for personal users but I could be wrong.

We could use skype as another alternit but I don't think moderation is
a thing that can happen in skype.

I guess we could use hangouts or its equivilant on the new google
platform since just about everyone has edge or chrome or something
like it.

Thing is, is this for the blind or the sighted here.

The blind will not want or need videos.

If we are going to have pictures on a stream, that would work for the
talks, the keynote maybe and a few other things.

However the forums, probably not so much.

I guess we could have a zoom room for the lightning talks/webinars and
keynote and the teamtalk for general but its a bit bitsy.

I have no idea what services would work on miranda, with the death of
aim, yahoo im, msn im, and the like as well as twitter pritty much,
the only mainstream stuff we have are zoom or teams.

For the blind, we have ventrilo, teamtalk and teamspeak.

Of course we could always have a chat app developed with the teamtalk
apis and that could work.

We could always have a stereo room with the right codecs but who knows.

We will always have issues.

On 9/12/2020 9:57 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

I understand all complaints and arguments for and also against
Team Talk. However, I am still struggling with users who think
that moderating in Zoom is easier than in Team Talk. For an user
it is easy to join, that’s true. But don’t forget that we are
doing all this stuff voluntarily and I hope the community does not
expect from us to become as professional as paid webinars or
something else. If the expectation goes in that direction, I am
sorry but at least speaking for myself I will not be available to
moderate a 3 days conference in classroom mode at a high
professional level and including all time zones of the world. This
is simply too much for a voluntar work like we do.

If we will decide to go to Zoom, open forum format will still be
available and this means that people will still be able to talk
without raising hands, especially in long breaks. We simply do not
have enough moderators to run a three days conference completely
in classroom mode. So if the community does not respect simple
rules like waiting for silence, don’t fall in each other’s words,
being respectful etc. then we need to push harder from a
moderator’s perspective and kick people from the conference much
faster than we did in the past. Maybe we were too negligent on this.

To be honnest, I prefer to have a conference with less
participants but qualitative input and useful content rather than
one with a lot of participants and messy audio and lots of people
who don’t respect simple rules. But this risk exists both in Team
Talk and Zoom or any other platform when we are in an open format
where every one can speak.

I think fund raising is not a problem, we have to think
strategically in which direction we want to go.



*Von:* <>
<> <> *Im
Auftrag von *Shaun Everiss
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2020 21:38
*An:* <>
*Betreff:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Well joseph the only real alternitive is zoom.

Zoom will work but someone has to pay if you want to run with more
than 3 people for 40 minutes.

So someone will have to pay to run zoom.

Teamtalk is fine for audio and its free.

Now I guess if we could get funding to hire a zoom room for the
conference that would be different.

But someone would need to pay for and subscribe to zoom.

I could see nvaccess doing this, the problem,the only time a
meeting is handled is for the conference.

The only other way would to join another group's zoom account, but
that would mean someone else hosting it.

Looking on zoom, while I have not looked at the rooms prices, a
meeting starts at 200 us and up and a webinar starts at 400 bucks
a year for 100 people and up to 1000 for 500 people.

No one knows how many will attend a conference.

Teamtalk aparently can do video but yeah, who knows.

Unless there is a drive to donait for a subscription to zoom, then
I don't know.

Bottem line, how many blind people will care to donate cash for a
yearly event 1 time.

Sure if I had the 1000 bucks for 500 people, I'd pay that per
year, but I don't have that.

There are other options for developers and educators and not sure
about the rest, I guess zoom could be approached by those handling
conferences and asked for the event its only really 1 or so
weekends sometimes a couple weeks a year.

On 9/12/2020 8:13 am, Joseph Lee wrote:


Personally, I beg to differ: as much as TeamTalk was a useful
platform, it is time to move away from a corner that we have
dug ourselves into. NVDACon held during a pandemic has
demonstrated a need to reach out to more audiences, and
personally, I think TeamTalk is no longer a suitable platform
for that. Accessibility and usability are major factors, but
if the community wants to broaden the appeal of NVDACon, it
should use a platform that allows more audience participation.

The era of “audio only” conference is coming to a close.
Because the mainstream language is visual appeal, NVDACon
should strive to achieve a balance between mainstream appeal
and accessibility. More people will consume news about NVDA
through online media, and it is time for NVDACon to respond to
it more effectively, especially now that the pandemic has
changed how people consume information (online presence will
be more pervasive, and so will efforts to create content that
appeals not only to a specific community, but also to wider
audiences). Put in another way: if NVDA is a global movement,
an event that serves as a gathering of this movement should
strive to reach global audiences, and one way is learning from
mainstream strategies.



*From:* <>
<> <> *On
Behalf Of *lauracornwell
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:00 AM
*To:* <>
*Subject:* Re: [NVDACon] NVDACon 2020 post-mortem analysis:
success, moving to a different platform, Twitter feed

Thanks to all for all help this year. Now as for moving to
zoomed I think that cost would be a big part of things we
could reach more people maybe but  not having a plan for
weekend use is not helpful this is why I think that staying
with team talk would be better .

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